A Conversation with Todd Snider
8/15/01
Q: How did you and Eddy first meet?
A: The first time I met him, I don't think he really met me. It was more like a fan at a show, you know? It was at a place called the Cheatham Street Warehouse in San Marcos, Texas, in 1986 or 1987. He was playing, just him and his dad, and I didn't know he was going to be there. I was just getting started, and I remember from then on he was my favorite guitar player. He was somebody I was kind of obsessed with, his dad too. So then when I got my record deal, the guitar player that we had was kind of unreliable and didn't want to go on the road. The record company didn't want him to play on the record, and it kind of turned into a fight. I said if we could get Eddy Shaver, then I would do it. The producer said he had tried to use Eddy on a record with Steve Earle, but that Eddy didn't show up. We sort of just sat there, and then he said he'd try it again. And Eddy showed up. We got really close real quick, in like the first week. It started with just me playing the bunch of songs that I was thinking about recording. I had a band, but I asked him to come in and take over the band, you know? And it was in that process that we got to know each other.
Q: I think you had the ticket right there, letting him direct the music.
A: Yeah, that was the way, and he was going to do it on the road too. And then their record came out, TRAMP ON YOUR STREET, the one with the song about Madonna on it, "The Hottest Thing in Town". I didn't know if it was even for sure coming out at the time, but it was finished. Then before my record was even mixed, their record was flying and they were on the road. Otherwise Eddy was going to take the year and be in our group. But then after that, they never really did slow down again.
Q: Did he do any dates with you?
A: Yeah, he did like about a month with us before and during the making of the record, and even some after. And then there was a time even after I had made like two records, and he was playing with his dad. Our guitar player, Will Kimbrough, his wife had a baby and Eddy came out for a month and did a big run of shows with us at that time. That's only been about two or three years ago.
Q: So the arrangements on your first record, SONGS FOR THE DAILY PLANET, were Eddy's?
A: I would say most of them. Yeah, almost all of them. He came in and we'd just sit up and like talk about CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL and stuff real late into the night. We liked all the same people. I knew that we would because he was my favorite guitar player ever. He really was.
Q: Who else did he like?
A: John Fogerty was somebody he really liked, and also the Allman brother who gave him the guitar, Dickey Betts. You know somebody he talked about a ton and that nobody else ever talks about? The guy from MOUNTAIN, Leslie West. The guitar player from that "Mississippi Queen" song. He loved that group. He said no one appreciated that group and he thought they had a great drummer. He thought the drummer from CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL was great. He kind of didn't like a lot of stuff. Most stuff he didn't like. (laughs)
Q: I can imagine. (laughs)
A: Yeah. A lot of the new stuff and the new younger people who liked Billy Joe and stuff, Eddy didn't seem to like a lot of that. But that was like a few years ago. The last year I didn't really get to talk to Eddy very much.
Q: I wondered about your experience working with Tony Brown, the producer of your first record. He's a big Nashville name. Did he keep you guys on a pretty tight leash?
A: No, no. He was really good with me to begin with and he would just sit there in awe of Eddy. I don't remember which Steve Earle song Eddy didn't show up for, but Eddy said he just didn't like the song. That kind of knocked Tony Brown over too, you know? Eddy didn't give a shit who it was. You know what I mean? I think if Eddy hadn't been able to play like he wanted to, he would have just left, kind of unceremoniously. I think I would have too. (laughs) Tony has had lots of luck with the real country people. But around here, since he's done Steve Earle and Nanci Griffith and all these people, he's also pretty notorious for doing records where he lets a person just go do their thing. But you know, you can't try to get him to let you do that and then tell him to make you a superstar, like Celine Dion. You've got to pick one or the other. (laughs) But there are people who say, "Hey, I just want to make kind of a funky record and tour." Eddy was one of those kind. (laughs)
Q: My personal observation is that Eddy played with a little extra oomph on songs with Native themes.
A: Yeah, like ‘Oklahoma Wind".
Q: Yeah, and have you heard "Moonshine and Indian Blood"?
A: Yeah, yeah.
Q: Something about his playing just seems a little different to me.
A: Yeah, and on that one of mine, "This Land Is Our Land". He got really into that one.
Q: I understand he had Apache and Cherokee relatives. Did he ever discuss this with you?
A: He didn't talk about it too much, although you could tell that he and his dad kind of considered themselves Indians more than cowboys, you know? I think a big part of their family is Indian. I don't think it was something they just latched onto and thought was cool. I'm probably answering the question more from Billy Joe Shaver lyrics than anything else, now that I think about it. I'm just thinking about stuff that he sang in "Oklahoma Wind". He'd kind of go on those rants. But you've probably talked to Billy Joe quite a bit.
Q: Just as a fan.
A: He's a nice guy. When we were making the record, he would just come and sit around. They were really supportive of each other, those two. They had an awkward relationship. I mean, not awkward in a bad way, but they were... I shouldn't say because Billy will probably see this and kill me, but I don't mean this as a put down. Those two were as much like band mates as they were like father and son. They had a father and son thing, but they also had a Mick and Keith thing going on, you know?
Q: Yeah, their relationship seemed very passionate.
A: Very loving you know, and supportive, but it had lots of layers to it.
Q: I understand that Eddy considered you a true friend. His friend, Lisa Rogers, took some photos of you at the Cactus Café. She showed them to Eddy and he wanted one. He put it inside the lid of his briefcase and every time he opened it, there you were.
A: Oh, wow! That makes me feel good.
Q: What was important to Eddy musically?
A: He was a lyrical nitpicker, you know? I don't know if he wrote a lot, but I know he wrote a few songs that he played me. He even made a record, but I only got to hear it once.
Q: BAPTISM OF FIRE.
A: Yeah, yeah. Everybody has their own lyrical opinion, and his was really important to him. We'd be talking on the phone, and he'd tell me that so and so called and offered him a job. If he turned them down, it was always because he'd say, "I can't stand there while that guy says that." And I think it was because look who he got to stand next to, you know?
Q: I know.
A: The watermarks pretty high. (laughs) With his dad, that was their group. I think he definitely wanted it to be rooted in blues, and he was real into the tone of his guitar. I know a story that I heard, but I don't know if it is true. On one occasion Eddy told me it was true. Then he told me on a different occasion that it wasn't true. It was about when he was playing with Dwight Yoakam, they wanted him to turn down and he's gone on and on about this certain thing about his sound, he can only do it at a certain volume.
Q: That's true.
A: And he's not the only guitar player in the world that would say that. It's a valid statement, you know? So the story goes that they gave him a different amp they wanted him to use, and he put his other one under the stage and ran down to that one and got caught. That's probably a myth, but... (laughs)
Q: I've heard that one myself.
A: Have you heard that one? (laughs) He laughs every time he hears it, you
know? But I knew that was important to him, the tone of his guitar and all that.
Q: And that seemed to be kind of a sticking point between father and son.
A: Volume? (laughs) Yeah.
Q: Mmm hmm. I once stepped right in the middle of it. One night I told Eddy he could turn up because it just wasn't the same, you know? He said, "Tell that to my dad!" So I did and Billy Joe kind of narrowed his eyes at me and said, "Eddy told you to tell me that, didn't he?" (laughs)
A: I liked it loud like that. I had been a fan of Billy Joe Shaver's for a long time, but TRAMP ON YOUR STREET, I just thought it was great! Man, I've got all of their records. I remember the first one Eddy played on was SALT OF THE EARTH, and that's one of my favorite records too.
Q: Yeah, I love that record.
A: I love it. I think that was the first one Eddy did and he was pretty damn young.
Q: Did he ever talk about his childhood, touring with his dad?
A: No, he never did.
Q: I wonder what he was like when he started playing. Was he like the rest of us, dorking around in our bedrooms...
A: Did you ever see that picture of him playing guitar with Willie Nelson?
Q: Yeah! I wonder if he was a prodigy or if he just had a lot of heart and kept at it.
A: Yeah, I wonder too. I don't know. By the time I first saw him he was like twenty-six and I was twenty-one, and I thought, there's no way there's like a twenty-six-year-old plays like that, you know? He was just very, very different than any twenty-six-year-old I'd ever seen! He had already put a lot of miles in a van and a bus and shit before I ever met him. He'd been on the road probably eight years when I met him.
Q: Too bad he never talked about that.
A: You know what he talked about? He talked about Jesus. A lot. Probably more than anything. (laughs)
Q: Now, I was raised by Christians, serious Christians. After meeting Eddy and Billy Joe, I was like, "Wow, you can be a Christian and be like that?" They weren't stereotypical.
A: Yeah, you're right. You're right. I think most of the time, the Christian that you get to see is sort of manufactured for television. As much as Eddy was into it, that's not what he was selling, you know?
Q: After Eddy passed away, you wrote a song about him called, "Slipping Away".
A: Oh, you've heard that? Alright!
Q: Yeah, when you performed it on Father's Day in Santa Cruz.
A: I'm going to put it on the record that I'm making. Yeah, I played that and I didn't know Billy was going to be there. About ten minutes after I got done playing, he came walking up. He wasn't even on the bill, he just showed up. He seemed so great, you know? He is a resilient, resilient person.
Q: I agree.
A: I don't know what it is about Billy Joe Shaver, but there's something really different about him and there was something really different about Eddy too. There's just some sort of fight that Billy Joe has. I don't know where he gets it.
Q: I'm glad he got to hear that song. It's such a beautiful song and the words just tear you up.
A: Thanks. I was driving through Waco when I wrote it too. I just remember that when I heard, I was just really shocked. It took me a long time to believe. I sure miss him too. We used to talk on the phone like almost every night, for a long time. For a long time.
Q: I always thought Eddy never got what he was due, the respect...
A: I didn't understand it at all. I used to read a lot of rock and roll stuff when I was younger. Now it doesn't seem healthy to read about people, especially if you know them and it's mean. But boy I remember when Eddy died, I went out and bought ROLLING STONE and I was angry for a fucking month. I don't think there's a single fucking guitar player on MTV right now, between now and twenty-four hours from now, there won't be a better guitar player than him on that station! But since the dawn of creation, I think there were cavemen walking around going, "You know, you're too country for rock or too rock for country." And there are some of us who choose to hear that statement used on us and not change. You just sometimes have to say, " Well this is what it's going to be then!" And you will accept that a certain amount of people don't want a little twang in their rock and roll, you know? (laughs) Maybe it’s just a southern-type thing that we do. Especially them, more than me. I'm more of a folk singer. When I think of Billy Joe, I think of a country singer, the epitome of a country singer that puts the current country singer people to shame.
Q: Absolutely.
A: You know? Like I'm not one of the people who I think should be on country radio instead of the people on country radio, but I think Billy Joe Shaver is. (laughs)
Q: Did Eddy ever talk about what he would want for his career? Did he want to be like Jimi Hendrix?
A: Yeah, I think so. He talked about making albums, his own albums. Everything else was temporary. Like any time he played with me, he flirted with joining our band, but even at those moments, it was only for the course of the album. With every other band, except Shaver, he never really got into anything. I think if he had lived he would have plowed that field further.
Q: On top of every other tragic aspect of his death, the fact that he was two days from recording his next solo record...
A: He was?
Q: Apparently, yeah. He had a deal with ANTONE'S RECORDS.
A: Yeah, that's what he was working on, for a long time. That was going to be a cool record. Eddy really could sing. He sang on the new record, THE EARTH ROLLS ON. I think that was where he was headed. But I also think if he could have had his way, I think his dad and him would have played together until his dad didn't want to any more. I think he saw SHAVER as his main piece of art.
Q: He played like he did.
A: Being the arranger of his dad's songs, I think he really saw that as his
calling. At least in the moment. Ten years from now, if he was still alive and,
you know, if Billy was either gone or just wanted to sit at home, then maybe
he'd be all obsessed with his own stuff. He was obsessed with Billy Joe.
Q: We all benefited from that.
A: I loved it! The first time I ever saw them both it was just the two of them with acoustic guitars. I just thought I was going to die! Eddy smoked cigarettes the whole time, and I thought, "I want to be in a band with that guy!"
Q: And you were.
A: Yeah.
Q: Well, Eddy indirectly brought me to your music. I found out he played on SONGS FOR THE DAILY PLANET and bought it. Great record!
A: Thanks. It was fun having him around. I wish we could have done that again. I would have liked to have done an acoustic record with him. He did such a neat acoustic thing with his dad. That would have been fun, too. Yeah, he made my first record, he made it. He was the guy who did all those sounds.
Q: He's so versatile on it. Now that I know he arranged it, I'm doubly impressed.
A: Yeah, I found out how sensitive he was during that. He was a really sensitive person. Yeah, he was a like a real vulnerable artist, and I learned a lot from him. Like if you said, "I don't know about that idea," not only would he sulk, but he'd be honest and say, "You know, I'm just...just give me five minutes," or whatever. (laughs) And that's the only way. I learned that from him. It's the only way. You can't pretend that you're not hurt if a moment comes, and you're trying to be creative and you get hurt. Just say it. As opposed to like having another shot of whiskey and sticking your chest out a little further, which is what most rockers do.
Q: It's weird, cause onstage he seemed like such a badass. You got to see the other side of that.
A: (laughs) He wasn't that way at all! Even if he would rag on someone, he'd say, "God, they have created a new kind of cheese." That was his big thing, and he'd say it over and over. "You could make a sandwich with this!" But then he'd say, "But I know Jesus loves them, and their fans love them too." He would always say that. He would always say, "But hey, I'm not here to judge, I'm just saying my piece." He and his dad would always say, "Jesus loves everybody."
Q: Did he go to church?
A: Yeah, I think they went to church all the time. But maybe they didn't. It's like being at church all the time with Billy Joe! (laughs) I loved it. My brother is a little bit like that. My brother is completely non-judgmental, but he really thinks people who don't accept Jesus Christ are going to go to hell. He's kind of fundamental, you know? I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know anything, but I know what Billy Joe says. (laughs) He can get pretty rowdy or he can get real angry, but he doesn't sit around and tell people not to do these things, you know?
Q: That's true.
A: He's not the kind of guy who says you shouldn't be drinking cause of Jesus. He's the kind of guy that when it starts raining he says, "Isn't Jesus just wonderful?" You know what I mean, he's not like those Christians who are like, "We're going to stand outside an abortion clinic and be Christians." He's more like a rainbow-pointer-outer.
Q: Yeah, they marvel at creation.
A: Yeah, and that's not hard to be around, you know? I don't like to be around people who don't think you can dance.
Q: That was my upbringing and you should see me try to dance now!
A: (laughs) I grew up Catholic and we weren't encouraged to dance either. I still feel gypped. I could have some hip-hop influence if I'd only been raised right.
Q: (laughs) You said Eddy was sensitive. Was he funny?
A: Very funny. Real dry and sarcastic. He'd say something that he didn't mean or something like that. I always thought he was funny. But he was also a sad artist. Like Kurt Cobain.
Q: It's so sad. People dream about playing like him. Once again, you never can judge a person.
A: One of the lines in my song "Slipping Away" that made me the maddest was the one where I said, "You're sleeping through a dream come true." Like you are doing something so gracefully that so many of us wish we could do. But, on the other hand, there seems to be a little mystery spot right there in between that no one has been able to put their finger on in all these years. (laughs) It's hard to ignore that Kurt Cobain and Jimi Hendrix and Eddy Shaver and lots of these people that we like seem to drift all the way in.
Q: Did Eddy ever talk to you about his mother?
A: Yeah, that was a hard part for him, I think. He really loved his mom. He talked about her like she was a saint. He had kind of sainted her. You know, that's true of both of his parents really. The one thing I never did know about Eddy Shaver was what it was he was so sad about. He never came off about what that was that made him so sad. You know, it might have been his mom and dad. I think that his mom getting sick might have derailed a train that was already going too fast anyway.
Interview conducted by LA Kranz
Thank you LA, Pearl, Todd, Bubba
